Curse

Gift3d · Jul 09, 2009, 12:14 AM // 00:14

Nerf Shadow Form, and you have people playing guild wars in areas that players are looking to farm.

Remove /report, and you have players socializing and playing with each other instead of being unreasonably fearful that an overly sensitive pansy will get them unfairly banned.

dusanyu · Jul 09, 2009, 12:29 AM // 00:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by HuntMaster Avatar

So one build destroyed the game huh? No it didn't. So fixing that one build won't fix the game either.

PvE is challenging depending on which profession you play. So buffing PvE difficulty will only make it harder for some and impossible for others. Which means more rage quitters which means less people to play with which kills the game faster.

"God mode is not Just one build it is any number of overpowered Skills (90% of the "PvE version" of standard skills and PvE only Skills

glacialphoenix · Jul 09, 2009, 12:38 AM // 00:38

Quote:

Gate of Pain yesterday consisted of a ton of perma sins running the mission for 5-7k each.

...it's not even like it takes that long to do normally, but nevermind.

Frankly, I don't think it's 'fixable', and I think people are overly nostalgic about 'the good ol' PUGging days' and things like that. Having implemented PvE-only skills, they can't afford to take them out anymore because people will start screaming, and screaming loudly.

PUGging died because people got sick of having to cover the resident idiot's ass, and because - quite frankly - with so much content in GW, the chance of finding someone who wants to do the exact same thing as you is rather low, unless it's the ZQuest of the Day. Those are not things you can fix; those are community issues rather than build issues.

kostolomac · Jul 09, 2009, 12:41 AM // 00:41

PvE is dead for me because there is no new content. Shadow form didn't kill pve, it just made people grind more.

[DE] · Jul 09, 2009, 12:42 AM // 00:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by HuntMaster Avatar

Unless he uses a build that gets nerfed.

Casual gamers tend to not care, nor notice when the builds they use get touched. You wouldn't believe how many people still ran the exact same cookie cutter Warrior's Endurance build after it was meganerfed for the next couple weeks.

capblye · Jul 09, 2009, 12:57 AM // 00:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by [DE]

However, it is broken to others. If you don't care about balance then it shouldn't affect you when Anet changes skills, fixes AI, and tries to improve the game. Your viewpoint does not equal the viewpoint of others, and it's ignorant to suggest otherwise. Saying a game is balanced because you don't care, or because you're a 'casual' player, is one of the dumbest things I've heard.

Will admitting that the game is broken affect your game play in anyway whatsoever as a casual gamer? No, it won't. Will Anet attempting to fix the game affect your game play in anyway whatsoever as a casual gamer? No, it won't.

Where did i say the game is blanaced?
Dont read what you wish, read what i wrote.
For that matter, what the hell does "Balanced" mean in regards to a game?
The game is plenty challenging enough for me as it is.

Saying something is "the dumbest thing you ever heard" is well ... kinda dumb.
It's an opinion. Nothing more.
Will it effect my gameplay? It might, but it wont bother me. Ill work with whatever they change, or decide to add/remove.
Why? because the game is still fun to me.

But your attitude is the opposite. If they dont "Fix" the game, it's a huge injustice to you.
If they dont "fix" the game, why does it bother you?
Why not just play on, and enjoy the game for what it is?
Entertainment.

One other poster mentioned this:

Quote:

The problem with PvE is that stuff is so overpowered there's no satisfaction in completing most things anymore because it all becomes too easy. You can easily hit the end chest in FoW on HM every 30 minutes all day. This is an elite area that's supposed to be hard!

Au contraire. I still get plenty of satisfaction beating a mission in HM using Sabway and a D-slash W/.
I think its awesome that i can complete an elite area in 30 minutes with my mornming coffee, then go outside and play with my daughter!

As to the op's topic, i dont think PvE is dying. I think it has fallen off what it used to be, sure. But i know folks that are just playing the game for the first time, and think its great.

The real argument here is between the people who have been hardcore players for too long, and the people like myself who play when they can.

The hardcore player is bored. (this has been said in a few of the posts).
The casual player is still working their way through things, and getting pleasure from doing so.

Your bored, so you want change.
Im not, and i say why change anything?

Will the developers do anything about it?
Who knows ... not me.
Why go on and on for 3,000 posts about it?
Because you hope that the developers will read the topic and all of a sudden say "whoa! we have some unhappy players! we need to fix it!"

Mayhap, they'll read my post and think, well ... most folks are content. Let's leave well enough alone.

You cant make all the people happy all of the time.

byteme! · Jul 09, 2009, 01:12 AM // 01:12

Some of you people need to let go of your keyboard and go outside. Taking GW PvE way too seriously. The amount of time you people spend number crunching, spending countless hours fine-tuning your builds etc.. could've been spent elsewhere. The fact we do these things and constantly post in fan forums is already a step above 90% of the community. We're all GEEKS. (myself included and I'm not proud of it) Time to take a step back and let the other 90% just do their thing. You cannot possibly win by taking things away from people. Go ahead scream, cry, bitch, moan, and whine for your nerfs. You won't fix a damn thing and you'll just create a bigger mess. Has GW's 4 year history not taught anyone anything? Nerf after nerf has done nothing. WE THE COMMUNITY KEEP BREAKING THE GAME. You can blame Anet all day long but aside from the obvious stuff like Ursan and SF we are the ones constantly breaking the game.

Anet puts in Incubus to stop runs in EoTN dungeons. WE BROKE THAT.

Anet reduces SF's dmg output. WE GOT AROUND IT.

Anet nerfs CoP/Fixes RoJ. WE GOT AROUND THAT and last I checked our completion times are the same if not faster with Manlyway (what a dumb name) in certain areas despite the nerf.

Dying Nightmares were added to UW to slow farming down. That failed miserably I would say.

Keg farming. Although it was nerfed. Who do you think came up with the concept?

Time after time we the community keep breaking the game on our own. When it becomes apart of the meta we blame Anet for introducing said skill(s). Oh the hypocrisy. It took months after Nightfall was released and the subsequent nerf to Ursan before a single thread about CoP being imbalanced was introduced. Why is that?

Quote:

Originally Posted by HuntMaster Avatar

Ah! So the truth comes out. People want nerf's for personal platinum profit! I knew it! So because someone figured out a way to make more money faster than the average gamer, other gamers are complaining because they can't make as much without using a build/profession they don't enjoy as much. Now I understand.

So the whole point of decreasing or ruining someones fun is over a few platinum. Well that says it all.

Don't be surprised. People spend countless hours in front of their monitor re-reading and proofing read posts/threads just so they can brainstorm/gather enough info to form a seemingly legitimate sugar coated argument on why they think the game should be the way they see it. You see it all the time. Quote wars back and forth. A lot of individuals don't really have any solid arguments of their own. They think it up as they go or as they are reading. Certain things never get mentioned until 1 person QQ's about it on a fan forum. I can name instances where certain things were problematic for months and not a single soul ever mentioned it or even knew it was a problem. In other words it wasn't a problem at all. Took 1 dumbass to start a thread and suddenly like a flock of Geese we hear from the vocal minority who were otherwise quiet and content. People are like sheep. Quick to jump on the bandwagon. I expect to be quoted, misinterpreted, spelling Nazi'ed, told I'm wrong, told I must be joking and perhaps chastised because that's just how we GEEKS do things.

GW's is/was/always will be strictly for entertainment and a past time. Some of you treat it like a second job. You know who you are and it sucks to be you...

SerenitySilverstar · Jul 09, 2009, 01:31 AM // 01:31

The only thing I see dead round here is attention span.

[DE] · Jul 09, 2009, 01:32 AM // 01:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by capblye

Where did i say the game is blanaced?
Dont read what you wish, read what i wrote.
For that matter, what the hell does "Balanced" mean in regards to a game?
The game is plenty challenging enough for me as it is.

You say that to you, the game is not broken, aka balanced.

Quote:

Saying something is "the dumbest thing you ever heard" is well ... kinda dumb.
It's an opinion. Nothing more.
Will it effect my gameplay? It might, but it wont bother me. Ill work with whatever they change, or decide to add/remove.
Why? because the game is still fun to me.

But what is fun to others? If Anet includes my fun type of fun, will it wreck yours? No, because as you claim, you're a casual gamer who doesn't care about changes. But if Anet works towards your type of fun, will it wreck mine? Yes.

Understand?

Quote:

But your attitude is the opposite. If they dont "Fix" the game, it's a huge injustice to you.
If they dont "fix" the game, why does it bother you?
Why not just play on, and enjoy the game for what it is?
Entertainment.

It is. The game is supposed to be balanced. It's not. To many people, that matters. To you, it doesn't. However fixing the game doesn't affect you either way, in which case, making it the better alternative when it comes to making the choice of whether or not to implement balances.

Daesu · Jul 09, 2009, 01:42 AM // 01:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by lutz

It's dead because nobody in the PvE world knows what skill balance is, and continually advocates against a balanced PvE aspect of the game.

All you need to do to bring PvE back:

1. Take out all PvE versions of skills.
2. Take out all PvE skills.

= done.

I would agree provided:

1. Take out all PvE versions of attack skills/hexes etc. from monsters
2. Take out all PvE attack skills/hexes from monsters
3. Make all monsters level 20 max.
4. Each monster group is far apart enough so we wont over aggro
5. Each monster group would only contain max party size
6. Improve monster AI
7. Either remove the environmental effects or make them affect monsters also.
8. Remove the health and energy regen advantage from monsters.
9. Remove armor advantage from monsters to be equivalent to humans.

Then PvE would be more like PvP and fights would be more fair. If a monster dares to use an overpowered PvE skill against me, it is only fair turn that I use a PvE skill against it. I dont see why we should give special concessions to Shiro that overpowered cheater of an "assassin" that doesnt even use assassin skills.

Targren · Jul 09, 2009, 01:45 AM // 01:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by fenix

I personally wish I could find a low req Bone Dragon Staff, because I'd love to be able to sell it, and have enough money to buy myself a high req one for my Ele, and an Eternal Blade, and Obsidian Blade for my Warrior.

If people are farming the Dungeon where they drop in ridiculous times, the value of the BDS drops as well. If eventually, I come across one with my regular balanced team, the value could have dropped so much that I won't be able to get the items I was originally after.

Conversely, if you DON'T come across one in your regular balanced team, the lower price works FOR you, not against you, since you can afford it more easily.

Master Fuhon · Jul 09, 2009, 01:57 AM // 01:57

PvE is dead, because the players became a more convincing enemy than anything the designers had previously created.

There's a whole lot of gray area in what is good MMO design and what makes bad behavior. These are the common motivations for killing in a game scenario: kill something that drops good loot, kill to increase ones reputation with a faction, or kill because it makes you more powerful. If you applied this reasoning to an action you took in the real world, you would be labeled greedy, evil, a monster, etc.

What's typically needed for a fantasy game to last are constraints that provide a reward system skewed slightly in favor of being a good person, instead of the monster. When it comes down to it, a monster is just a thing that ‘harms people’ when it utilizes its own determination of personal reward system. Meanwhile, a good person is someone who ‘saves people’ when it utilizes its own determination of a personal reward system. These are definitions that society recognizes, I'm still trying to figure if it is possible to ignore the personal reward system (in hopes of producing a better behaving human), but that is a strong component of human programming.

They really need a far better understanding of how the reward systems of surviving social structures get people to act. To describe how the real world continues to last while game worlds die; the typical behavior of a farmer (motivation to kill infant raptors and their mother based on acquiring wealth) would be punished. This behavior would actually stir up animals to recognize human beings as a threat and attack them more often.

I really don't know what the playing base has the power to do besides push for the structural reward system to be altered, something a small fragment has been doing for a long time. I think that a good number of people who play this game are intelligent enough to realize something superficial like 'more content' will not fix deep rooted social problems.

But to describe what reducing the effectiveness of Shadow Form would do, it would make solo farming immediately less rewarding. People who solo farm a bit too much are acting out greed. I would hope to see these skills weakened so that higher levels of greed could not survive to present a greater threat to the community as a whole. Most of the theories I have seen describe communities as improving when greed is reduced, just as I have seen this fact demonstrated through things I have witnessed.

byteme! · Jul 09, 2009, 01:58 AM // 01:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by Targren

Conversely, if you DON'T come across one in your regular balanced team, the lower price works FOR you, not against you, since you can afford it more easily.

Ya but now he can't get a BDS sell it for a sick amount of money, buy the items he said he wanted (possibly resell those too) and still have money/ecto left over from the sale of his BDS. He ain't after the skin. Not picking on Fenix but at least he came out and was honest about it. Others I'm not so sure about. All I ever read is "Me Me Me Me Me". I have a hard time believing some of the things people say because I feel some people have their own agenda as opposed to the "for the better of the community" crap they keep preaching about.

Hyper Cutter · Jul 09, 2009, 01:59 AM // 01:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kain Fz

What we're asking for is to "revive" final fantasy 7, for example. Which, of course, is impossible.

I'll point out that Square-Enix DID that (and won't stop milking FF7, for that matter)...

Bryant Again · Jul 09, 2009, 02:04 AM // 02:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by HuntMaster Avatar

You ever heard of the level 1 FF12 challenge? Or the "No item" challenge? Players that want to challenge themselves do so willingly without requiring the game be changed. Yes they can use the powerful skills but choose not too because they are looking for a challenge.

Thats like someone who wants to lose weight claiming they won't stop eating if there is food around, simply because its there. Someone has to take it away from them for them to stop. I don't understand this mentality at all.

Why should it be up to other people to make it challenging for you when you have the ability to do so on your own? Why should everyone else suffer because of your personal tastes? You don't have to use useless skills, but you don't have to use overpowered skills either.

When it's up to the players to challenge themselves that means the game in itself isn't challenging. It also depends on how much they have to limit themselves.

But challenge isn't precisely what so many are hoping to maintain, rather the general integrity of the game. I feel that when two people can solo an area in 30 mins, when players can deny massive amounts of damage by one person bringing a single PvE skill, when the strength of PvE skills is determined by the *time* you put into the game, when players can boost their success and survival rate via gold and materials, I definitely feel that we've gone off the tracks somewhere down the road.

Removing everything is stupid, I agree. Balancing it, however, is not. When things become balanced in PvE we'll know we're just one step closer to actually having a solid game.

Quote:

Originally Posted by capblye

To summarize ... the game is fun as it is for me.
It aint broke, so why fix it?

What standards do you use to determine when something is "broken" or not?

And yes, most players are indeed content - that's because most players are casual. They're in the earlier areas hitting things and enjoying it. They're joining RA on occassion and having fun whether they win or lose.

They are *not* in the UW with a buddy and kicking way too much ass, they're *not* going on speed runs and getting mad loots.

All this OP jargon and other facets of the game do not concern the majority player. If you made everything even more imbalanced they wouldn't care, because they just killed a dragon and are pretty damn pleased about it.

Zinger314 · Jul 09, 2009, 02:13 AM // 02:13

ArenaNet's confirmation of lack of GW1 content is what killed PvE.

jiggles · Jul 09, 2009, 02:22 AM // 02:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by Targren

Conversely, if you DON'T come across one in your regular balanced team, the lower price works FOR you, not against you, since you can afford it more easily.

However if you read what fenix said, you would see that he is after the low req BDS to sell it. Not to keep. Your point is pointless.

fenix · Jul 09, 2009, 02:27 AM // 02:27

It's not just about getting valuable drops to sell though. I mean, my view is that I'd want it to sell, but for other players I imagine the reward of being able to get a 300e+ item in a dungeon is great.

Being able to perma the dungeon in 5 minutes, and the result being an overfarmed 20e skin, makes the game a LOT less fun/rewarding.

Daesu · Jul 09, 2009, 02:35 AM // 02:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bryant Again

When it's up to the players to challenge themselves that means the game in itself isn't challenging. It also depends on how much they have to limit themselves.

But challenge isn't precisely what so many are hoping to maintain, rather the general integrity of the game. I feel that when two people can solo an area in 30 mins, when players can deny massive amounts of damage by one person bringing a single PvE skill, when the strength of PvE skills is determined by the *time* you put into the game, when players can boost their success and survival rate via gold and materials, I definitely feel that we've gone off the tracks somewhere down the road.

I think this is what PvE is about. If you look at it from the other angle, monsters like Shiro has many really unfair skills too that we dont have access to. It is basically overpowered skills against more overpowered skills. I would gladly trade SY for Battle Scars or Impossible Odds.

If "balanced" to you means fighting fair, then you should look at the pvp paradigm not pve.

byteme! · Jul 09, 2009, 02:43 AM // 02:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daesu

I think this is what PvE is about. If you look at it from the other angle, monsters like Shiro has many really unfair skills too that we dont have access to. It is basically overpowered skills against more overpowered skills. I would gladly trade SY for Battle Scars or Impossible Odds.

If "balanced" to you means fighting fair, then you should look at the pvp paradigm not pve.

Daesu, perish the thought but I agree with you.

For the rest of you. After 4 years everyone should realize by now balance in PvE is an oxymoron. Everyone has their own definition of balance. What one person finds balanced another person would likely disagree. Get over it. Nothing is about to change "for the better". You'd be hard pressed to convince the community as a whole let alone Anet's devs that your lil righteous crusades are the answer to everyone's problems within the game.